PDA

View Full Version : DSD Roio's



Arnold_Layne
2015-02-19, 01:33 AM
Just testing the waters here. Curious of any Y'ers have DSD DAC's and would be interested in any DSD128 transfers I've done.

So far I've done a BBC transcription reel BBC Rock Hour #7 which features the 1971 Fat Old Sun, One of These Days, and Echoes.

This would be unedited with commercials due to the nature of DSD files cannot be directly edited on a PC.

DSD128 or 5.6Mhz bitrate is double the data rate of SACD. There are plug-ins for Foobar and some software called Audiogate by Korg that will allow transcoding to PCM and playback on a computer. However by doing so you may not be able to hear the benefits of DSD encoding.

I don't want this to become a debate over which is better: PCM or DSD, Just gauging interest.

For an idea of the size: this 54+ minute tape takes 4.3G of data at this bitrate.
Gear used:

Technics RS-1500U 2 track reel to reel deck.

Tascam DA-3000 PCM/DSD recorder.

A_L

falbrav
2015-02-19, 10:50 PM
Just testing the waters here. Curious of any Y'ers have DSD DAC's and would be interested in any DSD128 transfers I've done.

So far I've done a BBC transcription reel BBC Rock Hour #7 which features the 1971 Fat Old Sun, One of These Days, and Echoes.

This would be unedited with commercials due to the nature of DSD files cannot be directly edited on a PC.

DSD128 or 5.6Mhz bitrate is double the data rate of SACD. There are plug-ins for Foobar and some software called Audiogate by Korg that will allow transcoding to PCM and playback on a computer. However by doing so you may not be able to hear the benefits of DSD encoding.

I don't want this to become a debate over which is better: PCM or DSD, Just gauging interest.

For an idea of the size: this 54+ minute tape takes 4.3G of data at this bitrate.
Gear used:

Technics RS-1500U 2 track reel to reel deck.

Tascam DA-3000 PCM/DSD recorder.

A_L

Interesting. I don't have a DSD DAC yet... and the debate that you wisely avoid would probably be endless, yes. Anyway, if you are planning any upgraded transfer of that wonderful reel, I am sure that you'll gather huge interest.
Typically, when somebody wants to do some editing-mastering and then encode to DSD, DXD format is used. It is a very hi-rez 24x352.8k, so in the 44.1k family, but a WAV by all means. It allows processing (on software that supports it) and then it is efficiently encodable to DSD. That could be another path, if you want to try.

Arnold_Layne
2015-02-19, 11:22 PM
Interesting. I don't have a DSD DAC yet... and the debate that you wisely avoid would probably be endless, yes. Anyway, if you are planning any upgraded transfer of that wonderful reel, I am sure that you'll gather huge interest.
Typically, when somebody wants to do some editing-mastering and then encode to DSD, DXD format is used. It is a very hi-rez 24x352.8k, so in the 44.1k family, but a WAV by all means. It allows processing (on software that supports it) and then it is efficiently encodable to DSD. That could be another path, if you want to try.

Unfortunately the Tascam can only do DSD, 2.8 or 5.6Hhz. And PCM up to 24/192.

My plan is to do some new transfers of analog sources I have.

A_L

falbrav
2015-02-20, 09:03 AM
Unfortunately the Tascam can only do DSD, 2.8 or 5.6Hhz. And PCM up to 24/192.

My plan is to do some new transfers of analog sources I have.

A_L

I bet that you'll be asked (pressed...) to do 1971-9-30 in both DSD and PCM 24-96. The latter to be compatible for most folks that do not have DSD DAC, the first for those who have it and, as yourself suggested, would like to give it a try...
Your first transfer was already excellent, but many (yourself included, if I well remember) thought that it was improveable on the soundcard side. If you have in hand this improvement, it will be hard to wait for it :p

seremetcc
2015-02-20, 10:39 AM
Could an iso file be created, disseminated, and then burned to DVD? Would special software be needed for this?

I have DFF files from the transfer of my Syracuse 10-3-1987 show but do not have the software to create a DSD disc.

falbrav
2015-02-20, 12:12 PM
Could an iso file be created, disseminated, and then burned to DVD? Would special software be needed for this?

I have DFF files from the transfer of my Syracuse 10-3-1987 show but do not have the software to create a DSD disc.

Korg Audiogate software should do the job. If I well remember it is free, provided that you allow it to send a 'tweet' at any usage, or some similar jolly stuff. Besides this, which I personally find nearly unbearable, I think that it should be able to burn a DSD disc.

Arnold_Layne
2015-02-20, 01:20 PM
A DSD disc is possible. But there's not a lot of players that can handle the format even if they play SACD's.

falbrav
2015-02-20, 03:16 PM
By the way: can you use that unit also as DAC? But it has no USB input, right? To hook a computer to it, it must have SPDIF output, or eventually a USB-SPDIF converter, correct?

Arnold_Layne
2015-02-20, 11:51 PM
By the way: can you use that unit also as DAC? But it has no USB input, right? To hook a computer to it, it must have SPDIF output, or eventually a USB-SPDIF converter, correct?

It can be used as a DAC, but the files have to be on a usb drive, sd card, or CF card. There is a coaxial spdiff input and a sdif-3 input.

falbrav
2015-02-25, 09:45 AM
Korg Audiogate software should do the job. If I well remember it is free, provided that you allow it to send a 'tweet' at any usage, or some similar jolly stuff. Besides this, which I personally find nearly unbearable, I think that it should be able to burn a DSD disc.

Gave a look at Korg site and that silly tweet stuff seems to be gone. Audiogate 3 is given as free with no authentication or other similar stuff. Good.

jkerr
2015-03-21, 03:46 PM
Funny I just listened to a DSD_Disc I created from your earlier BBC Rock Hour xfer! and then just happened to find this thread...

I decided to finally de-lurk and say I'd be very excited for anything in the DSD format. I've been using Audiogate for a long time now and have burned many DSD discs sourced from 24 bit files. Basically I use Audiogate to do any conversions/edits, organize the files manually and then use ImgBurn to write to a DVD. I play these on a Sony XA5400ES sacd player.

So yes please!

Arnold_Layne
2015-03-21, 09:44 PM
My plan is to do the BBC radio show reel first. It only contains three tracks; Fat Old Sun, OOTD, and Echoes. I did a test recording, but I think the levels were too hot so I'll have to redo.

My intended workflow:

Direct transfer to DSD (CF card)
Copy CF card contents to PC
Edit in Audiogate
Export to DSD and PCM with Audiogate


I also invite members to send in their masters for DSD transfers. I use a serviced Nakamichi Dragon and CR-7A for cassette transfers, and currently a Technics RS1500 for reel to reel transfers.

I've also been toying with a demo version of Celemony Capstan. The demo is hardly usable as you can only play about 5 seconds of corrected audio at a time. For anyone who doesn't know about the software, it corrects for wow and flutter and speed deviations. It's automatic correction is not perfect, but it does give the user the ability to make adjustments as needed. The software is rather expensive (over $4000) and requires the use of an iLok USB dongle as well. When used properly, the software can make some of the older roio's with excessive wow and flutter much more enjoyable to listen to. Here's a youtube video showing how the software works: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGzsnpfhIW8

falbrav
2015-03-21, 10:28 PM
My plan is to do the BBC radio show reel first. It only contains three tracks; Fat Old Sun, OOTD, and Echoes. I did a test recording, but I think the levels were too hot so I'll have to redo.

My intended workflow:

Direct transfer to DSD (CF card)
Copy CF card contents to PC
Edit in Audiogate
Export to DSD and PCM with Audiogate


I also invite members to send in their masters for DSD transfers. I use a serviced Nakamichi Dragon and CR-7A for cassette transfers, and currently a Technics RS1500 for reel to reel transfers.

I've also been toying with a demo version of Celemony Capstan. The demo is hardly usable as you can only play about 5 seconds of corrected audio at a time. For anyone who doesn't know about the software, it corrects for wow and flutter and speed deviations. It's automatic correction is not perfect, but it does give the user the ability to make adjustments as needed. The software is rather expensive (over $4000) and requires the use of an iLok USB dongle as well. When used properly, the software can make some of the older roio's with excessive wow and flutter much more enjoyable to listen to. Here's a youtube video showing how the software works: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGzsnpfhIW8

Wow, great news (expected, ok).
Just one doubt about DSD-PCM conversion, though. Will you do it at 88.2k or 96k? First one would fit better but it is slightly less supported. 2nd one is hi.rez standard but requires some more tricks from DSD.
I think that, for a PCM release, the best would be a all-PCM flow. But I realize that duplicating capture and editing is a meaningful burden...

Anyway, thanks a lot in advance. This is gonna be a top one. I just wish you had in hands also 1970 master! I guess that Neonknight is right, currently available transfer is probably improveable.

Arnold_Layne
2015-03-21, 10:43 PM
Wow, great news (expected, ok).
Just one doubt about DSD-PCM conversion, though. Will you do it at 88.2k or 96k? First one would fit better but it is slightly less supported. 2nd one is hi.rez standard but requires some more tricks from DSD.
I think that, for a PCM release, the best would be a all-PCM flow. But I realize that duplicating capture and editing is a meaningful burden...

Anyway, thanks a lot in advance. This is gonna be a top one. I just wish you had in hands also 1970 master! I guess that Neonknight is right, currently available transfer is probably improveable.

I'll have to experiment with the DSD to PCM conversion. So far I've only done a DSD64 to 16/44.1 conversion for a cassette tape transfer I did for someone on the stevehoffman.tv forum. He was truly impressed with the final quality. High praise for a forum full of discriminating audiophiles.

jkerr
2015-03-21, 11:38 PM
That is great news! For DSD->PCM I always use 88.2k just because. I have a Korg MR-1 for the occasional vinyl rip. And I've tested various conversions since sometimes have to do de-clicking, and really heard no problems with any resolution. The only issue I've run into is just watching the levels when going PCM -> DSD, seems to add a db or 2.

I like your workflow. That's what I would do too, nice flat xfer.

falbrav
2015-03-24, 05:39 PM
That is great news! For DSD->PCM I always use 88.2k just because. I have a Korg MR-1 for the occasional vinyl rip. And I've tested various conversions since sometimes have to do de-clicking, and really heard no problems with any resolution. The only issue I've run into is just watching the levels when going PCM -> DSD, seems to add a db or 2.

I like your workflow. That's what I would do too, nice flat xfer.

For DSD->PCM it is correct to use 88.2k, or more in general a value in the 44.1k family. Anyway, all players that support DSD converting it to PCM already do it on the fly. For example, foobar does it.
So, for a PCM release... I keep thinking that the purest way would be to do a further transfer, direct to PCM, at 96k (or 192k, nobody forbids, I just don't think that it is too useful). I realize that it might be respectably boring to duplicate transfer and edits... so I would definitely understand if A_L replies 'just forget it' :D

Arnold_Layne
2015-03-24, 10:45 PM
For DSD->PCM it is correct to use 88.2k, or more in general a value in the 44.1k family. Anyway, all players that support DSD converting it to PCM already do it on the fly. For example, foobar does it.
So, for a PCM release... I keep thinking that the purest way would be to do a further transfer, direct to PCM, at 96k (or 192k, nobody forbids, I just don't think that it is too useful). I realize that it might be respectably boring to duplicate transfer and edits... so I would definitely understand if A_L replies 'just forget it' :D

"just forget it"

Just kidding. I agree two transfers is ideal, and maybe I'll do that. I'm off next week and plan to start on the project this coming weekend.

A_L

Arnold_Layne
2015-04-05, 03:42 PM
Gauging interest in Would You Buy a Ticket to this Show audio in DSD. I still have the VHS tape this is sourced from. Audio is Hi-Fi VHS and would be played using a JVC HR-S9800U SVHS deck.