Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 11 to 13 of 13

Thread: Fat Old Sun's evolution

  1. #11
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Location
    Portland, UK
    Posts
    153
    Thanks
    67
    Thanked 70 Times in 1 Post

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveTheRave View Post
    You could ask this about lots of songs. Most of us have heard Roger’s demo of Money. But do you think Roger composed the guitar solo, or just said “David this is where you play a solo”? I would guess that David wrote it but it’s not enough to get a writing credit. I think that extra composition falls into the category of “producing” a song.
    I think the basis of the middle jam section came from 'Corrosion/Moonhead' from 1969, it's got a very, very similar bassline apart from the walking down at the end, which Waters says he composed (it's also identical to an older Dexter Gordon jazz song, 'Cheesecake' but it's probably unintentional).

    Going back to the original topic, I really do like the added middle section. I do wonder though - was it borrowed from anything else? It turns out that a few things from that period were borrowed from other songs around at the time. Lee Harris said on Twitter that Nick had told him that they'd borrowed/modified Cream's 'We're Going Wrong' for the gorgeous middle section of Childhood's End (that was the reason they aren't playing it like that with NMSOS), and as I recall someone pointed out here that the late 1972 version of Great Gig had a chromatic sequence that was virtually identical to Procol Harum's 'Whaling Stories'. As with Gilmour sneaking the Doctor Who theme into several songs live across the different tours (obviously One Of These Days but I think also Embryo or Cymbaline, and then later on Sheep), I wonder if it's a case of that again.
    Roger Waters @ Ziggo Dome, Amsterdam, Netherlands - 19/06/2018
    Nick Mason @ Portsmouth Guildhall, UK - 23/09/2018
    Nick Mason @ O2, UK 03/03/2020
    Nick Mason @ Royal Albert Hall, UK, 23/04/2022

  2. #12
    Join Date
    Jul 2020
    Location
    Strawberry Fields
    Posts
    191
    Thanks
    34
    Thanked 278 Times in 5 Posts

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveTheRave View Post
    You could ask this about lots of songs. Most of us have heard Roger’s demo of Money. But do you think Roger composed the guitar solo, or just said “David this is where you play a solo”? I would guess that David wrote it but it’s not enough to get a writing credit. I think that extra composition falls into the category of “producing” a song.
    Well, Dave may have "written" (improvised) the solo, and the loud-quiet-loud probably came from rehearsing the song. But it was most likely Roger's decision to use a standard Blues progression with altered ending (the riff they always do at the end)
    Sitting in my english Garden, waiting for the Sun

  3. #13
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    679
    Thanks
    141
    Thanked 80 Times in 1 Post

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by tomhinde View Post
    I think the basis of the middle jam section came from 'Corrosion/Moonhead' from 1969, it's got a very, very similar bassline apart from the walking down at the end, which Waters says he composed (it's also identical to an older Dexter Gordon jazz song, 'Cheesecake' but it's probably unintentional).

    Going back to the original topic, I really do like the added middle section. I do wonder though - was it borrowed from anything else? It turns out that a few things from that period were borrowed from other songs around at the time. Lee Harris said on Twitter that Nick had told him that they'd borrowed/modified Cream's 'We're Going Wrong' for the gorgeous middle section of Childhood's End (that was the reason they aren't playing it like that with NMSOS), and as I recall someone pointed out here that the late 1972 version of Great Gig had a chromatic sequence that was virtually identical to Procol Harum's 'Whaling Stories'. As with Gilmour sneaking the Doctor Who theme into several songs live across the different tours (obviously One Of These Days but I think also Embryo or Cymbaline, and then later on Sheep), I wonder if it's a case of that again.
    I think that Lee Harris plays some Cream solo-musical quote during Interstellar Overdrive (sometimes he used to quote The Embryo) : that's Sunshine Of Your Love, but Lee told me that was Moon River.
    That's how I realized that like Hendrix starting with Strangers In The Night, Clapton started like Moon River (I never realized this- even if "Moon River" sung by Elvis is pure diamond. I love so much the use of this song in F.F Coppola movie "The Outsiders")

    Yes, the "Whaling Stories" chord progression (bass+Rick noodling on keyboard) can be heard during the mid-step evolution of "The Great Gig In The Sky", live at the Hollywood Bowl 1972. Too bad that David Gilmour did not try a guitar solo. But that would have been too close to Procol Harum's song.
    But Paul McCartney kept this chord progression for his instrumental under lazy dynamite "Loup (1st Indian On The Moon" on his double-LP "Red Rose Speedway" with the Wings; it came out in 1972 and the chord progression of this instrumental with a bombastic bass-line his close to "Whaling Stories" with some keyboard sounds reminiscent of "Absolutely Curtains" ("La Vallée"/"Obscured By Clouds" came out earlier I think)

    For "Money" the acoustic demo does not show what was the middle part (it's just the main acoustic riff + verse and chorus). I guess that was a collective work with the band to create the middle section.
    I have always found that the rock-prog trademark of "Money" which is often described as something unusual and unique in this record : the specific time signature 7/4 (unusual for a rock song, you can read it everywhere about this song) + the use of saxophone + the bass line was too close to King Crimson's "Ladies On The Road" (on the superb Island (1971) album; which precedes Dark Side Of The Moon). And Gilmour changes the time signature for the second part of the solo, whereas King Crimson stays in the same time signature for the saxophone break.
    That said, there are certainly some jazz influence (Rick talked about Kind Of Blue for a chord progression he liked (but that was not for the song "Money"); and Rick and David were certainly listen to some jazz, so perhaps it's just a coincidence. But since the "Whaling Stories" is too obvious; same for "Independence Day" acoustic guitar riff by Van Morrison, then I would say that it's certainly "Ladies On The Road".
    On the other side, Roger Waters have often said that John Lennon Plastic Ono Band was his "disque de chevet"; but I don't see some obvious musical influence there (but later : Isolation -> The Gunner's Dream) - I can find only the litany-structure for Eclipse vs God. (which would later be used again for Pigs 3DO). I think that Roger had in mind something as strong, crude and introspective as Lennon's first album but it was much more in terms of theme, lyrics, and arrangement (I think that Roger wanted something rougher, whereas David and Rick tended to get something more luxurious- or even jazzy : the arrangement with double-saxophone overdubbed on "Us & Them" on the One Side Of The Moon silver RoIO)

    but I'm the kind of guy to say that the bass-riff of Michael Jackson's Billie Jean can be heard obviously on one song of Alice Cooper's album "Pretties for You". Although I can agree that François Valéry "elle danse Marie else danse" is the French version around this bass-riff.
    Last edited by abronsius; 2022-07-01 at 02:06 AM.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •