Deep in the Zabriskie Point Sessions - Questions and answers, opinions...cont

[wromanus]

Originally Posted by mmxp.com

I'm reading the first thread atm. And so far I'm enjoying myself greatly. The following two questions posed may (or may not) have been answered and If so I apologize. If not then I surely hope I won't stir up a storm by adding to the debate concerning....drum roll....the County Song lyrics!!!!
(the crowd boos)
OK OK....If you DO mind me saying this the please vote to kick me off the board! Hate mail is welcome until my quote is filled.....
.....Supposedly-soon-to-be-ex-member-of-yeeshkul

Thanks, some parts of this thread are very nice to read indeed.
The Country Song lyrics had a veeery long discussion but more opinions and posts like this are always welcome

Originally Posted by mmxp.com

...maybe CS should have had it's own thread??? but never mind.

Never. I'm really against the fragmentation of the arguments.
That's maybe the only "limit" of Yesshkul.

Originally Posted by mmxp.com

Now for my first comment (which may or may not contain a question):

Listening to the "Gather Throng" segmet it seems to me that something happens lyricwise. CS has "a thing" to the verse. The Floyd are know to track the vocals several times and this recording obviously is no different from say, the vocal technique on DSOTM. It's a trademark thing. But when I listen to it sound ever so alien to me. It does not sound like the normal pink floyd harmonies. I might be wrong but this is what I hear:

Verses: David multiplied possibly by two with Rick harmonizing on that track.
Chorus: David multiplied possibly by two with no Rick harmony.

Specifically the Verse parts sound different because of the harmonization. This is where the part turns alienesque. As far as I can tell there is always a feeling of "this is dave/rog/rick" singing lead with harmonizing backup. But I just can't find this in CS. The boys voices are morphed so to speak.

The booing Crowd goes: Ok MMXP Where are you going with this...?

FLICKERING FLAME
has this line in it:

When the coloured girls sing
I feel my heart boom (nooo...but so says one source).
Listening clearly you can audibly hear two words being superimporset after my heart...(in my ears) one is swing and one is blue!

This I also think appears on "Lost Boys Calling" somewhere. My guess is that it is a demo thing. Still fleshing out the lyrics thing...

Here is the question: -> Is it possible that the "throng" is a recorded misunderstanding of one or two words being morphed into "throng"?

And all the courtiers crowded round
And this is what she told the gathered throng

That throng is actually a through or a new round or other oun sounding word that is double tracked in correctly???
Because in all honesty: Why would mr's Floyd - kings of perfection let a error like this slip?

I'm awaiting my jugdement on this. I can hear the red queen yelling "OFF WITH HIS HEAD"

Well, this was discussed a lot in the 15 pages for the Country Song' Lyrics by all these members:
zbinks
radiowaves
LulubelleIII
ddyte
sydzappa
goldenband
theembryo
younglight
RonToon
Lennyif
WRomanus
Moonwall
}{eywood
Olly
marksturdy
from here:
http://www.yeeshkul.com/forum/showth...=12271&page=23
to here:
http://www.yeeshkul.com/forum/showth...=12271&page=38

All agreed the word was " throng "
Your "theory" of two mixed words is new.

It may be since in the "Document" http://www.yeeshkul.com/forum/showpo...4&postcount=74 we read:
1969-12-17 - 8-track superimposition of ‘vocals’ onto ‘Country Song’ (Take 1)

Originally Posted by mmxp.com

....Which leads me to the second question:

This one is for Walter: The connection to Lewis Carroll's "Through the looking glass" has been made previously. But why hasn't this been incorporated further into the story of ZP???

I saw Tim Burtons awful mess of "Alice in Wonderland" the other day and the parallels between the two were very, very obvious (You can make a CS fan-video using Alice in Wonderland y'know). How come we never looked deeper in to the connection between Alice and CS?? After all...it is intresting to see the Floyd writing fairytale music two years after seeing Syd leave.
Three or four years after Mathilda Mother/Belloq.

Now I'm not saying we should dive deeper in but...well...I was just thinking! ... Let's read the book again...it's available here.
Alex/MMXP

We had referements to Alice by ddyte
http://www.yeeshkul.com/forum/showpo...&postcount=262
and younglight
http://www.yeeshkul.com/forum/showpo...&postcount=282
but we didn't dig more.

We had another good different input by neonknight

Originally Posted by neonknight

I think a chess and theatrical connection is possible!

When I first read the Red Queen title it reminded me of Pawn to King 5, a ballet that was performed by Ballet Rambert at the Jeanetta Cochrane Theatre in London on 4,5 & 7 December 1968 featuring music by Pink Floyd.

Try "john greschak pink floyd chess" in your favourite search engine (I had to use google cache) and it brings up an interesting site at the top of the list.

The page credits "Wright, Richard, and David Gilmour 1968" for Pawn to King 5and states that a copy of the performance program is available in the Cotton Collection of the Royal Holloway Library of the University of London. Maybe somebody in London could drop by and see if they could do some scans?
Neon

and here by plains203: http://www.yeeshkul.com/forum/showth...=12271&page=14

A lot to dig still!

55700
To get back to the original thread: http://www.yeeshkul.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12271
or to the last post of it: http://www.yeeshkul.com/forum/showpo...&postcount=614

[wromanus]

Originally Posted by wromanus

..................
About The Violent Sequence you are right, it would be great but Antonioni thought was better to leave like that.
We can have a help from another of the Don's answers.
My question:
Do you know why Antonioni left the Violent Sequence of the students without music?
Don's answer:
A personal choice. He seemed to not like music in a lot of developing scenes.

As a related info for The Violent Sequence and the making of the whole Soundtrack
here is an extract of interview to Antonioni in 1978:

Interviewer: Giovanni Fusco, who composed the music for L'Avventura and Red Desert, among other films of yours, has complained of the difficulty of working with you.
He once said, "The first rule for any musician who intends to collaborate with Antonioni is to forget that he is a musician."
What, then, is your view on the use of music in films, since directors sometimes use it to buttress a weak or at least less than scintillating performance?

M. Antonioni: Even though I have studied music ever since I was a boy, every time I have music in films it means a terrible sacrifice for me.
In my opinion, the image is not enriched but rather is interrupted, even, I'd dare to say, vulgarized.
The image loses its purity. If I could, if a producer would let me, I'd assemble a soundtrack with only natural noises, in which noise itself would be music.
And I'd get a conductor to orchestrate the sounds for me.

Interviewer: But in Blow Up, for the first time, music played a significant role in the story. And the same was true of Zabriskie Point.

M. Antonioni: The rock music you're referring to was natural at the time. It was a kind of new language for young people.
But even in these instances I was esitant, suspicious, because rock music in the end - And especially in America - has less to do with rebellion or even revolution than big business.



55962
To get back to the original thread: http://www.yeeshkul.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12271
or to the last post of it: http://www.yeeshkul.com/forum/showpo...&postcount=614

[mmxp.com]

Spoiler: This post contains a rant. Summarizing at the very bottom.

Well, this was discussed a lot in the 15 pages for the Country Song' Lyrics by all these members:
zbinks
radiowaves
LulubelleIII
ddyte
sydzappa
goldenband
theembryo
younglight
RonToon
Lennyif
WRomanus
Moonwall
}{eywood
Olly
marksturdy
from here:
http://www.yeeshkul.com/forum/showth...=12271&page=23
to here:
http://www.yeeshkul.com/forum/showth...=12271&page=38]

Alex puts an apple on headmaster Wromanus desk and apologises to the class.

I'm sorry about that. I can see that my theory considering bad dubbing was rather weak. I also join the "throng" side of this discussion. Pardon me for stirring things up.

We had referements to Alice by ddyte
http://www.yeeshkul.com/forum/showpo...&postcount=262
and younglight
http://www.yeeshkul.com/forum/showpo...&postcount=282
but we didn't dig more.

I've read the pieces on both and I have to say that this specific question is not answered. Like you said W: "but we didn't dig more." I'm bringing my shuffle. (anyone who don't like long posts can stop reading now!)

I really think we should dig. Lewis Carroll saw, as far as I've been told, somewhat of a revival during the late 60s hippie-era. Mostly due to the underlying druggy themes of Alice in Wonderland. I have first hand confirmation on this from....My parents...who recall reading the alice books and lord of the rings while stoning to Ummagumma. (poor sods!).

The questions I'm asking is :

Is Red Queen theme inspired thematically by "Through the looking glass"?
or is it spun-off "Pawn to King 5". And If so... was "pawn to king 5" spun of the Alice books? (win/win)

One thing I wwamt to point out though concerning the "Pawn to King 5" connection is that "The Red Queen" sure don't sound like dance/ballet music.
We know for a fact that the first two eras of Floyd relied heavily on instrumental jams and experiment for their extra-curricular ventures (TV/Stage/non-concert performances). Recordings and account say everything about freak-outs but nothing about swingy hum-alongs.

"If you heard the floyd coming on while doing the dishes you would probably scream"

So..my point is: "Pawn to King 5", being a ballet or dance event probably relied on good ol jams and noodlings like everything else in the pre-70s Floyd stable.
And I personally think that "The Red Queen" would not fit in with this.
Also consider the work the Floyd did with Roland Petit a few year later which should somehow connect back to "Pawn to king 5"!! See what my meaning in this? The Red Queen does not fit in with that version of Floyd.

I'm not saying "The Red Queen" isn't connected to "Pawn to King 5". I'm saying it doesn't feel right for such a project.

IMHO Zabriskie connects the remnants of a poppy british freak-act with the progressive monster that came afterwards.
The music we've heard from ZP is divided into to these main categories: Classic Floyd Psych and radio-friendly pop-hits. A bit like "More" and very much alike "Obscured by Clouds" (the theme of Soundtracks).

The Floyd were in 1969/1970 just about halfway between Piper and Dark Side. The influence of Barrett we slowly wearing off and the harsh realities of life and death we coming on.

We already know that several bits for Dark Side were "created" during the ZP sessions (Violent Sequence and Heart beats (pig meat) Thematically and lyrically "The Red Queen" sounds to be right there in the middle, almost perfectly balancing between Syd's fairytale songs and the political awareness of "Us and Them". This leads me to think the following:

"The Red Queen" is an idea that the Floyd was bringing along. Maybe something which previously would have been written but not recorded.

"The Red Queen" feels like one of the last descent attempts at writing a single. Which does make sense to me. It wasn't until after Ummagumma and AHM that the Floyd distinctly said "no singles". It is not implausible that they had been asked to cut something air-friendly, especially considering that the Floyd were recording for MGM (the americans) and not EMI, which let them do what they wanted!

I'm not sure if anyone can confirm this but wouldn't it make sense? The Americans saying "Now, listen here kids, we need a single to push this baby, got something for us?"

My whole point:
- "The Red Queen" was inspired by Lewis Carrolls "Through the looking glass".
- It is a nod to the Syd Barrett days of fairytale-yonder.
- It is spiced to have the political edge of Roger Waters fancy (later perfected on Us and Them).
- It is one of the last attempts at a single but left to posterity on a tape in a vault.
- It was not used for "Pawn to King 5"
- It is one hell of a song.

Now all I need is the where, how, whys and wherefores to prove it!

[vleardi]

Originally Posted by mmxp.com

I'm not sure if anyone can confirm this but wouldn't it make sense? The Americans saying "Now, listen here kids, we need a single to push this baby, got something for us?"

My whole point:
- "The Red Queen" was inspired by Lewis Carrolls "Through the looking glass".
- It is a nod to the Syd Barrett days of fairytale-yonder.
- It is spiced to have the political edge of Roger Waters fancy (later perfected on Us and Them).
- It is one of the last attempts at a single but left to posterity on a tape in a vault.
- It was not used for "Pawn to King 5"
- It is one hell of a song.

Now all I need is the where, how, whys and wherefores to prove it!

Another very interesting post!
I think all your points may be right.
I think also younglight, plains and neonknight should know something more about...

[younglight]

Originally Posted by vleardi

Another very interesting post!
I think all your points may be right.
I think also younglight, plains and neonknight should know something more about...

Indeed, they are all very good points! I'm just doing some more research before giving an opinion that may not add anything new.
For now, I say that the "Pink Queen" is more than a nod to Syd...